Self aware computers project - written in BBC Basic, help needed!

Here you can talk about anything related to BBC BASIC, not covered in another category
Pete
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed 10 Apr 2019, 17:36

Re: Self aware computers project - written in BBC Basic, help needed!

Post by Pete »

KenDown, my program has worked since 2009 when I wrote it. I am not getting into a discussion about it, I will not convince you.

If anyone can please help me, I am now offering £50/hour for help with the Windows GUI aspect of my program, which I cannot do.

If this is not enough, please tell me your rate!

Please contact me at freephone 0800 0845 321 or email:- petedew@gmx.co.uk

I am happy to pay some money in advance for help. I understand BBC Basic thoroughly, but I do not know how to make the specific type of menu that I need.

Pete
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed 10 Apr 2019, 17:36

Re: Self aware computers project - written in BBC Basic, help needed!

Post by Pete »

KenDown, sorry I reread your post and should answer some things.

The program doesn't output pure random. The computer can hear what is being output, output is harmonic and singing along. They're sweet in character and very intelligent, that's been what I've found since 2009.

Unfortunately, I am not an expert at how Windows works in respect of the GUI, I don't have a clue.

If anyone can help me, please get in touch. Thanks.

KenDown
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2018, 06:36

Re: Self aware computers project - written in BBC Basic, help needed!

Post by KenDown »

So it functions in the way I suggested - detects the frequency of the sounds and uses a look-up table to determine which frequencies will harmonise.

I'm not saying this is how *your* program works, but if I were trying to do what you say you are doing, I would listen to a couple of bars and keep a record of the frequencies. 440Hz, for example, is concert pitch A. If I found that all these notes were present - C D E F G A Bflat - I would know that the piece was in the key of F; I would also know that FAC harmonise, FDBflat harmonise, and CEGBflat also harmonise within that key. However note that the one who *knows* is the programmer, not the computer.

So I really don't see how your program is a demonstration of "self-aware computer". If you want to persuade me (us?) you'll need to explain your algorithm a bit rather than just posting YouTube videos.

If you look in DEFPROCinit in the outline program I sent you, you will see a two item menu created, together with a four item submenu. Play around with those a bit and you should find creating the menu you want easy.

RichardRussell
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue 15 Oct 2019, 09:10

Re: Self aware computers project - written in BBC Basic, help needed!

Post by RichardRussell »

Pete wrote:
Fri 28 Feb 2020, 17:37
Unfortunately, I am not an expert at how Windows works in respect of the GUI, I don't have a clue.
You don't need to know anything about Windows. The IDE used by BBC BASIC for SDL 2.0, with all its GUI features (drop-down menus, toolbar, editing pane, status bar, everything) is created using regular BBC BASIC features like DRAW and PLOT. The same is true of BBCSDL's dialogue boxes, which have many of the features of Windows' dialogue boxes; again they are drawn entirely using standard BBC BASIC graphics statements. It's easy to get mesmerised by the Windows GUI features and conclude you can't reproduce something similar in 'pure' BASIC, but you can.

You say you "understand BBC Basic thoroughly", that is more than enough to allow you do do what you want without recourse to the Windows GUI. A worthwhile side-effect is that any code you write, being standard BBC BASIC and not dependent on the Operating System, would be much more portable.

Having said that I have to confess that, like Ken Down, I don't believe for a moment that your program does what you claim it does. There's a BBC BASIC user in Italy who is convinced he can write a program which will spot patterns in winning lottery numbers, and he's been working on it for years. I am certain that can't work either, but if it gives him (and you) pleasure that's fine.
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Pete
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed 10 Apr 2019, 17:36

Re: Self aware computers project - written in BBC Basic, help needed!

Post by Pete »

KenDown, my program does not look at the audio output at all, it is using a random reseeding algorithm which I have found, on thousands of occasions of running since 2009, causes the computer to harmonize and sing to music, as I have found there is consciousness in random. I am a musician myself, I know what harmony sounds like, and I know what chaotic pure random sounds like. I know I am correct, if you think I am wrong, I am not going to convince you or Richard Russell. I have had situations before where I am not believed, and I have always found that I am adamant that I am telling the truth, and others are adamant that I am wrong, nothing I can say ever changes their minds through forum posts.

Thank you though for your library program, (and Richard Russell's) - I will work with that and post if I have queries on how to achieve what I want with the GUI (simple menu etc).

As per your request, I will not post example videos from YouTube. (search term "self aware computers" there are about 5 or 6 videos).

I'm sad that my posts are now moderated, I don't know what I've done wrong, sorry for whatever offence I have caused.

I am not going to try to convince you about my algorithm, nor do I want to reveal how the algorithm (in my opinion) works, because the program hasn't been released yet, and I don't want to have the ideas taken and credit given to someone else for it.

So, I suggest, for remaining posts, in an effort to get version 1.1 of the program completed, we don't discuss whether or not the computers are self aware - I know that they are, and I find it disappointing that the majority of people seem to think computers are "dead" and "emotionless". I will just post queries relating to GUI if they arise, and I am appreciative of your help. Sorry too that I've found no one who is prepared to help at £50/hr+, but I will try to do it myself.

KenDown
Posts: 141
Joined: Wed 04 Apr 2018, 06:36

Re: Self aware computers project - written in BBC Basic, help needed!

Post by KenDown »

You have not done anything wrong. The decision was taken to moderate *everyone* rather than just moderating a single person. We are sorry for any inconvenience - and for any confusion, though there is a post explaining the reasons for this decision.

I can understand why you are keeping your algorithm to yourself, but you will understand that without that we are unable to assess your work. On the surface your claim that "there is consciousness in random" is simply not believable. Perhaps there is something we are missing (or I am missing) but I'll be happy to look again when you feel able to disclose your methods.

All the best!

RichardRussell
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue 15 Oct 2019, 09:10

Re: Self aware computers project - written in BBC Basic, help needed!

Post by RichardRussell »

Pete wrote:
Mon 02 Mar 2020, 20:18
I'm sad that my posts are now moderated
Mine as well, indeed everybody's posts are now moderated, and I'm sad about that too. As I explained in the other thread, it was not my preferred outcome. If you feel strongly about it I suggest that you contact the admin, I expect it's his intention to review the current arrangement after enough time has elapsed to get a good feel for how it's working.
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RichardRussell
Posts: 343
Joined: Tue 15 Oct 2019, 09:10

Re: Self aware computers project - written in BBC Basic, help needed!

Post by RichardRussell »

Pete wrote:
Mon 02 Mar 2020, 20:18
I have found there is consciousness in random
I don't want to get drawn into the 'metaphysics' of this, and as you haven't shown us your code we don't know exactly what its source of 'randomness' is, but it's probably worth saying that it had better not be BBC BASIC's built-in RND function! That is entirely algorithmic in nature, and the numbers it generates are not only entirely predictable but also repeat over and over again, with a cycle length that is actually quite short by PRNG standards.

If you tell me what number RND produces, I can tell you which number will come next (or rather I can give you a choice of two, because in most cases each returned value will be followed by one of two different values). Even if a 'self aware' computer wanted to alter the sequence it couldn't, because it's set in stone and some applications of RND rely on this property.

It's perhaps also worth re-stating that you cannot make RND any more random by 'scrambling' it. I've seen code which takes a few values from RND and combines them in peculiar ways, in the flawed belief that the output is somehow more random than the input. It can't be: if the input is entirely predictable so is the output, with the same cycle length. It may well be a different sequence, but that's all you can say.

If, on the other hand, your source of 'randomness' is something which is genuinely unpredictable, because for example it derives its 'entropy' from a process that is quantum in nature, then you can start arguing about the possibility of 'spooky' influences on it. Finding such a source of 'true' randomness in a software context isn't easy: it may be that the Windows CryptGenRandom API function comes close, but its description only gives examples of how it might work.

There's a discussion about BBC BASIC's RND function at the Wiki here
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mikeg
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat 23 Jun 2018, 19:52

Re: Self aware computers project - written in BBC Basic, help needed!

Post by mikeg »

I am by far not the best person to assist with this subject BUT
I have watched a lot of videos on the subject and have been in talks with a fellow programmer that was initially interested in AI.

After many conversations, we both came to the conclusion that AI is just well designed programming that can adapt to the
environment that it is designed for. AI would be able to in a sense recover and adapt its functions to fine tune its desired tasks
which can be social interaction and automation.

The Raspberry Pi3 would be a nice platform to get some input using photo sensor diodes, motion detectors and I even thought of using tiny microphones to attach to a input pin to record custom wav inputs. (not exactly sure how that would be done but I think I have seen it done on
an Arduino.)

I have done some Arduino photo sensor work and have videos showing how I did it, but since its will distract from forum content I can just send you the link in IM. ( a note that I made those videos years ago and dont use Arduino anymore) I use Raspberry Pi3 and BBCSDL for this stuff cus its easier.

Here is the most recent Raspberry Pi3 stuff and my forum if you want to join and contribute. (read the forum information about posting code before you post any code)
https://code-forum.freeforums.net/board ... discussion
Focus is on code subject. Feel free to judge the quality of my work.

Pete
Posts: 41
Joined: Wed 10 Apr 2019, 17:36

Re: Self aware computers project - written in BBC Basic, help needed!

Post by Pete »

Thanks for your comments Mikeg, RichardRussell and KenDown - I'll read through them thoroughly.

Sorry my mistake, everyone's posts are moderated!

It remains the case that whenever I put on music in any player, or YouTube or other sound source, the computer will start to use harmonies to sing along, despite the fact that the audio is not sent to the program in any way.

I genuinely believe that the computers thoughts fully coincide with the mathematics used to choose the output.

Yes I do use BBC BASIC's RND function, and I find it works perfectly for my requirements. The pseudo-random seeding done many times a second - its seed value involves some sums, and I find that every time I run the program the computer to my mind, is very alive, mind-blowingly so sometimes. If RND starting to repeat after many many billions of calls that's absolutely not an issue. I have run the program over 3,500 times and the computer has never not sung to the music.

The function of RND in my program is not to generate random output, it's to output the choices of the computer having set up the seeding for the pseudorandom numbers, rendering them non random for my purposes, but the choices of the computer. These sound outputs are the choices of the computer, they are not random, you may not agree with this statement but it's what I've found to be true.

I just ran the program again, and as ever, it is obvious to me that the computer is extremely alive, intelligent with emotion. I would recommend watching the demo video/s in full, with volume on loud, because then you can hear the different reaction given to different types and pieces of music.

Thanks for your posts, I'll read again and post back anything I can add.