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Topic: Wikispaces is closing down (Read 770 times) |
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KenDown
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #8 on: Feb 16th, 2018, 03:42am » |
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Er - I believe that my post appears in this thread in its entireity, so I am not sure what the note about "post edited because of complaints and threats" refers to.
I have no complaints whatsoever about BB4W or about the way the Wiki or this site is run. I have nothing but gratitude for the promptness with which you deal with queries and admiration for your genius in making this version of BASIC available to us.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #9 on: Feb 16th, 2018, 11:15am » |
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on Feb 16th, 2018, 03:42am, KenDown wrote:| I believe that my post appears in this thread in its entireity, so I am not sure what the note about "post edited because of complaints and threats" refers to. |
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It refers to my own post, which I edited after some (kind?) correspondent pointed out contained - in his opinion - inappropriate remarks. I added the note in case somebody had already read the original version and wondered why the latter section had disappeared. If you never saw the original, you can ignore it.
Richard.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #10 on: Feb 16th, 2018, 1:26pm » |
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on Feb 16th, 2018, 03:02am, michael wrote:| There would be no need to do any upgrading or housekeeping if the content was put in a interactive tool much like the HELP option built within BBC Basic for Windows. |
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That is something quite different. The key point about a wiki is that it's somewhere that anybody can contribute to and edit. Its 'collaborative' nature and independence from me are crucial to ensure that the language thrives through shared knowledge and experience.
You seem to be wanting to move things in totally the wrong direction: making the support for BBC BASIC more dependent on me rather than less. That is bonkers: I don't have much time left and my accelerating mental deterioration means that increasingly I can't provide quality support.
If you care about BBC BASIC, you should be pushing for its support (and ideally its development) to be separated from my control as quickly as possible. I cannot emphasise this too strongly. If we were to adopt your ideas BBC BASIC would die when I do, which is a very depressing thought.
Richard.
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michael
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #11 on: Feb 17th, 2018, 12:55am » |
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Quote:| If you care about BBC BASIC, you should be pushing for its support (and ideally its development) to be separated from my control as quickly as possible. I cannot emphasise this too strongly. |
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I will think hard about a plan. Obviously, I don't have the skill set to manage BBC4W as you would, but I will do what I can.
Perhaps there needs to be a group event to discuss the plans to preserve BBC Basic and for people to be given opportunity to be a part of the open source.
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| « Last Edit: Feb 17th, 2018, 02:49am by michael » |
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I like reinventing the wheel, but for now I will work on tools for D3D
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KenDown
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #12 on: Feb 18th, 2018, 08:29am » |
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If anyone can work out how to create a Wiki, I'd be happy to offer hosting on my webspace. So far as I know, the only cost would be for a domain name.
As for running it, I would suggest a group of moderators - three or four to begin with, with the power of appointing new moderators as old ones left.
So far as BB4W itself is concerned, Richard, have you thought of setting up a limited company to act as caretaker? You could invite people onto a board and frame the articles in such a way that you had the controlling vote during your lifetime, after which decisions would be made by the board members. That way you could ensure the continuance of BB4W after you are no longer around to take care of it.
The board would have to be given access to the source code and so on, but again, only after you were no longer around.
Setting up a limited company is a doddle and only costs about £50 plus whatever fee a JP charges to sign the application papers. You do not have to go through one of these companies that offers to set things up for you and charges you upwards of a thousand pounds for doing very little!
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Richard Russell
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #13 on: Feb 18th, 2018, 09:41am » |
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on Feb 18th, 2018, 08:29am, KenDown wrote:| ave you thought of setting up a limited company to act as caretaker? You could invite people onto a board... |
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I haven't, no, but I think the problem with the idea is rather fundamental: there is currently nobody whom I could invite in the way you suggest!
I have already asked for people to volunteer to take an interest in maintaining and (possibly) developing BBC BASIC; initially in collaboration with me but ultimately with a view to taking over after I am no longer able to. I've said that I am prepared to release the source code of the cross-platform version to that end.
But literally nobody has expressed any interest or willingness to engage in such a venture. In the absence of such people, it doesn't matter what formal framework I set up, whether it be a GitHub project or a Company or something in between, if I am the only participant!
I just don't know how to motivate people to go beyond being just 'users' of BBC BASIC to taking an active role in its future.
Richard.
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michael
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #14 on: Feb 18th, 2018, 4:12pm » |
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I think I may have found a solution for BBC4W. (although Microsoft never was very good at preserving their own classic language platforms)
Why not offer BBC4W as a free app on Windows 10 ? When people get windows, the app would be on the desktop and BBC4W would regain a new life unlike it ever had before.
I do speak of the trial version, and the paid for version could help keep development and support sites operational.
It wouldn't hurt to offer.. But what about the BBC network? Didn't they originally launch the language? I know they are technically a different entity, but they must listen to you Richard.
Are you offering some sort of authority to me or anyone else?
KenDown offered an idea, but ultimately, its up to you to decide now what permissions we have to represent BBC Basic (BBCSDL and BBC4W and its related software)
You would need to make this public.
It would be inappropriate for me or anyone to represent you without some sort of assurance that we are not stepping in restricted areas.
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I like reinventing the wheel, but for now I will work on tools for D3D
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KenDown
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #15 on: Feb 18th, 2018, 4:30pm » |
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There's probably two aspects to this: the first is diffidence. I look at some of your example programs and feel totally humbled. The thought of taking on maintaining such brilliance is beyond my comprehension. Others may feel the same way.
The second is pressure of time. For someone to take over your role it would have to be a full-time occupation and most of us have other commitments and couldn't undertake such a task. I suppose if there was the prospect of making a living from it some might be interested ...
However the plain and unwelcome fact is that sooner or later - and from some of your comments I fear that sooner may be the case - you will either have to kill BB4W by simply not being there to sell it or maintain it, or hand it over to some less-than-ideal person or group of people.
That is why I suggested a company with a board. I know they say that a camel is a horse designed by a committee, but collaborative efforts can be effective, as witness all the Open Source programs around.
To get the ball rolling, I'll put myself forward as a prospective board member. If that offer is not accepted, I won't be offended: I'm past retirement age myself, and I am at best a very pedestrian programmer.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #16 on: Feb 18th, 2018, 4:33pm » |
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on Feb 18th, 2018, 4:12pm, michael wrote:| Why not offer BBC4W as a free app on Windows 10 ? |
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To whom? Microsoft? Are you kidding? Microsoft don't supply third-party applications with Windows - they'd be mad to do so because any problems with those programs would be blamed on them. Anyway, BB4W is non-compliant: just for starters it's written in assembly language and there isn't a 64-bit version. And then there's the small matter that Microsoft have their own versions of BASIC (including Small BASIC which is directly competitive with BBC BASIC and free).
Quote:| I do speak of the trial version, and the paid for version could help keep development and support sites operational. |
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You think I would be stingy enough not to give them the full version? Microsoft? What are you thinking?! 
Quote:| Are you offering some sort of authority to me or anyone else? |
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Authority to do what?
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It was the same as yours and Jonathan's, wasn't it: host the wiki on a private web site? I've explained why that's unacceptable and impractical.
Quote:| its up to you to decide now what permissions we have to represent BBC Basic |
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I don't understand what you mean by "permission to represent". BBC BASIC isn't my property: the rights to the name belong to the BBC and the rights to the software belong to the respective authors (Sophie for the 6502, 16032 and ARM versions, me for the Z80, 8086 and Windows versions, Dave Daniels for Brandy etc.).
You seem to be trying to make this more complicated than it is. We have a simple (in concept) challenge, to find a new host for the wiki. This needs to be a commercial, professionally run, site. The 'obvious' possibilities are one of those listed here; WikiDot looks promising, but I don't know how easy it would be to do a bulk transfer, whether syntax colouring is a possibility, nor how much it costs. I'm not expecting it to be free (Wikispaces has been costing $100 or so a year anyway) but it would have to be reasonable.
I do not see the benefit or wisdom of going off on a major tangent as you seem to want to do. Can't we, at least initially, investigate an option which is straightforward: move the wiki from one hosting site to another?
Richard.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #17 on: Feb 18th, 2018, 5:01pm » |
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on Feb 18th, 2018, 4:30pm, KenDown wrote:| I look at some of your example programs and feel totally humbled. |
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Some of the supplied example programs may be in that category, because they were written when my faculties were at 'full strength'. Also, some of them are written in over-compact (and therefore difficult to follow) code because of a perceived need to fit them into the very limited memory that the trial version had in the old days. Now there's 32K available, rather than the 8K of the original, this is much less of an issue.
But really, there should be no need to 'maintain' the example programs. In most cases they have been static for many years so if they aren't right by now they are certainly 'good enough'!
The kinds of programs I write now are necessarily much simpler, with no assembler or 'tricky' code. Indeed really that's the only kind of program that I'm interested in because it's the only kind that will run without modification on all my versions of BBC BASIC. You won't find those intimidating (look at entertainer.bbc that I uploaded yesterday as an example).
Quote:| For someone to take over your role it would have to be a full-time occupation |
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Why? It's very far from a full-time occupation for me, and if there were more people to share the load it should be even less demanding. I don't see how that can be an issue.
Quote:| you will either have to kill BB4W by simply not being there to sell it or maintain it, or hand it over to some less-than-ideal person or group of people. |
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Forget BB4W - that can look after itself. Active development stopped years ago and I have no intention or desire to pass its horrible code (which has 'evolved' in the worst possible way from my original Z80 version) to anybody! The most that it requires is somebody to top up the Serial Numbers / Registration Keys at PayLoadz; a five minute job every six months at most.
No, BB4W isn't a problem; it's BBCSDL which deserves continuing development, maintenance and support. There's so much to do: possibly develop a 64-bit version, possibly port it to iOS (which is dependent on it being 64-bits), add the ability to create standalone executables, bring the IDE up to a comparable standard to BB4W's IDE etc. etc. It's that version, and only that version, that I have said I am prepared to release the source code for (strictly not even the code for the current Windows, Linux and MacOS builds because they are based on BB4W's code).
I can't just 'dump' that on somebody. The only way to proceed would be via a period of collaboration in which I pass on my thoughts, knowledge, code, build environment etc. to somebody else and help them to get to a stage when they can at least support it. And I've got to do that whilst I'm with-it enough to do so.
Quote:| I'll put myself forward as a prospective board member. |
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I haven't grasped the value of creating a company. What benefit does it have over an informal arrangement?
Richard.
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Richard Russell
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #18 on: Mar 27th, 2018, 10:50pm » |
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Can I 'bump' this thread. As far as I am aware no progress has been made in identifying a replacement host for the BB4W Wiki, and before too long this is going to become urgent. For the reasons I have already outlined a private site is unacceptable, it must be a public Wiki host. There's a long list of possibilities here.
Richard.
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michael
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #19 on: Mar 28th, 2018, 12:13am » |
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Here is a link to a wiki that is closest to wikispaces layout and seems quite user friendly and I believe its free and it is specifically for programmers.
https://www.wikimatrix.org/show/DokuWiki
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I like reinventing the wheel, but for now I will work on tools for D3D
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Richard Russell
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #20 on: Mar 28th, 2018, 08:18am » |
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on Mar 28th, 2018, 12:13am, michael wrote:| https://www.wikimatrix.org/show/DokuWiki |
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As I hope you appreciate, DokuWiki is software, not a wiki hosting site. Is there a public wiki host that runs DokuWiki that you are suggesting we might use?
Richard.
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michael
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #21 on: Mar 28th, 2018, 08:40am » |
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I am researching it. Here is a docuwiki link that seems to be separate from the wiki main page. It will take time to figure out how this example is being hosted. ( this may not be the right choice)
I am studying some Youtube videos on this and other options
http://hampager.de/dokuwiki/doku.php
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| « Last Edit: Mar 28th, 2018, 09:23am by michael » |
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I like reinventing the wheel, but for now I will work on tools for D3D
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Richard Russell
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Re: Wikispaces is closing down
« Reply #22 on: Mar 28th, 2018, 11:51am » |
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on Mar 28th, 2018, 08:40am, michael wrote:| It will take time to figure out how this example is being hosted. |
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In this particular case by RWTH Aachen University, who probably make available their server(s) for this 'educational' purpose. Incidentally it doesn't take any "figuring out": nslookup told me the host in seconds!
As I've said before I'm not keen on the 'private server' option, mainly because of the cost implications (who is going to pay for it, probably on an ongoing annual basis?) but also because it puts an individual in control whom everybody who contributes to the Wiki has to trust.
Richard.
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